Friday, December 26, 2008

Oh Musikavanhu!!

Kathryn, I'm glad to hear you got an A in science, but it worries me that your inability to grasp the complexities of the mass of factual information within the world of science causes you to doubt its truth. The fact is that there is absolutely no information about your god except what exists in the Bible and in your imagination. A lack of understanding does not make evidence go away. You also mentioned that you 'live with the knowledge that [you] will be punished for [your] life." On what what evidentiary foundation do you base this knowledge?  Let me ask you this also:  If I, an Agnostic, lived a decent life -- don't kill anyone, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, I'm still going to hell because I denied God; however, the murderer across town who lied, cheated, killed, stole, repented, and believed, gets a ticket to heaven? I've asked ministers this question. They give me some really twisted answers. Turns out it's true: the murderer goes to heaven, and the good nonbeliever goes to hell. This is your jealous God?  This is your omniscient God?

Anonymous, you've taken a comprehensive list quotes from history's smartest people, grabbed one name that isn't as powerful or historically significant, and used it to make a blanket statement about the entire thing.  I'm sorry to say it, but Woody Allen's presence on this list does not detract from its importance, nor does it in any way negate the words of the most respected minds in recorded history. 

How much smarter or more qualified to answer questions of the unknown than these people do you believe yourself to be? What reason, if any, do you have to suggest that these people might all be simultaneously incorrect about one god in a million for whom not one single shred of evidence exists? What do you know that they do not? More importantly, what do they know that you do not?  You can only hope that Cicero, Einstein, Jefferson, Adams, Plato, Aristotle, Franklin, Galileo, Lincoln, Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, the Curies, Watson and Crick, Voltaire, Darwin, Nietzsche, Freud, Newton, Madison, Marx, Locke, Hobbes, Napoleon, Gates, Socrates, Jung, Kant, Epicurus, Aquinas, Taft, Cleveland, Quincy Adams, two Popes, Edison, Paine and countless mentioned and unmentioned luminaries are all wrong? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. These are the brightest minds in history.  If they were all wrong, we would still be living in the Dark Ages.  

What if YOU are wrong?  

Claire, a cult is a religion generally considered to be false. Since no one has proof of any of this, the only thing that sets religions apart from cults are sheer numbers.  Secondly, you say you have nothing to lose, but if you are wrong, you have everything to lose.  At least if you hold off on solidifying a choice, you can make up your mind when you meet your maker, whoever she may be.  After all, no one really knows.  Are you suggesting you do?  Not even the most respected believers would claim that.  Also, are you suggesting the Egyptians were wrong? The Romans? The Greeks? The Muslims? The Assyrians? The Native Americans? How convenient that you and your Christian neighbors are the only ones who got it right on your first and only try.  I bet believers of every other religion think the same exact thing.

Lets try another exercise here:

Here's a list of deities. Find yours within.  Why are you hopeful or sure that you picked the right one?  Keep in mind that in different places and in different times, societies were just as sure as you are now that theirs was or were the only correct path to salvation.  I would venture to guess that almost everyone who reads this post is Atheist with regard to all of these gods except Jesus. Why not go one further?

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35 comments:

Jenna said...

im really glad for people like you in the world who can verbalize such strong arguments. i agree with pretty much everything you write on here, yet i have a hard time developing (in my own mind) the correct and complete thoughts to give and make the same arguments and points...although i know they are there, i don't always have all the information....and frankly, most of the time i just dont even go there because with most of these people, it doesnt matter how many points you prove, how many facts you have, or how much sense you make, they are right, you are wrong, and that is that..like my boyfriend's extended family, for example: cousins, aunts and uncles who are born agains...i am jewish by heritage (not religion, although i do agree with some of it, yet i agree with some of a lot of religions) which means that im going to hell in their book. just like you. i guess i'll see you there! actually, hell may not be such a bad place, since most of our friends will be there with us. apparently most of the bad guys are going to heaven anyway, right?

kd said...

Let me ask you this also: If I, an Agnostic, lived a decent life -- don't kill anyone, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, I'm still going to hell because I denied God; however, the murderer across town who lied, cheated, killed, stole, repented, and believed, gets a ticket to heaven?

Perhaps above all, this is the one thing that I just do not understand. I consider myself an atheist, but it's not because I specifically disbelieve in any god - it's more just that I don't feel a need to believe in anything other than myself. I don't need a religion to teach me how to be a good person.

Claire Humpage said...

"How much smarter or more qualified to answer questions of the unknown than these people do you believe yourself to be?"

So this is what it comes down to. I may not be as smart as these peope but that doesn't make me or the others stupid.

Also yes if a murderer repents and truely believes then they will be forgiven. Are YOU not a forgiving person Mikey because the whole forgiveness thing seems to be a concept you are unable to comprehend.

And again you haven't told me what i would lose if i am wrong. Considering you believe there is no God in any shape of form, surely in your mind when i die that will be it....there will be nothing more. So what exactly will i have lost.
You seem to consider us ignorant because we choose to deny science. However (talking for myself) I am aware of it, I have listened to it but I have chosen to believe in God so I do not believe that I am ignorant.
You have got me to think and when the holidays are over and things have slowed down then i am going to spend more time on this.

Krystal said...

I've always maintained the unreasonable idea that a lifetime of good followed by one moment of evil will keep you out of "heaven" but a lifetime of evil followed by one moment of repenting will get you in to those pearly gates.

It's kind of like this...I'm a hockey fan. So you take a hockey player....he plays year after year in the NHL and he consistantly produces good results. He scores, he has assists. He is just an overall good guy. Works hard but never wins the Stanley Cup.

There's another player though...he plays terribly. He's always in the penalty box. He never scores for the entire season. And in the final game of the playoffs he scores the winning goal. His only goal of the season.

So who deserves to get inducted into the Hall of Fame? By your reasoning, Claire, the terrible player wins. It's not the work ethic that counts, it's the final score. All that matters is the end result. I just can't see how that is logical.

On the comment about science...

Ever take logic in school?

Deductive reasoning goes like this:

A. All men are mortal.
B. Socrates is a man.
C. Socrates is mortal.

Therefore...

A. Science says that god does not exist.
B. I understand science.

So what is C? Logically....

C. I understand that god does not exist.


Yet....you answer: C. I choose to deny science.

That isn't a logical answer. Aristotle would be very upset with you.

Krystal said...

ooops...I should have re-read that. I meant to say "I've always maintained that this idea is unreasonable".....bad sentence structure!

kd said...

Claire, I don't think you lose anything if you are wrong. I can't speak for Mikey, but like I've said in several comments - I can't hate on anybody for choosing one specific path that they think is right. If you think that you need your religion to get by, that's okay. You are welcome to that choice. I just don't agree with it is all. So, if the path you have chosen is the right one, then when you die you will surely be rewarded in heaven. And if it turns out that we were right, then you'll just die. Is that really so bad? I don't understand the need to have something after we die.

Additionally, you said that if a murderer repents and truly believes then he will be forgiven. Does this mean that no matter how evil and hateful and harmful a person is, if he says he believes in God then everything is okay? This concept just really does not fit into my world view.

Tara said...

This blog is actually stressing me out. I have been so conflicted within the last year or two regarding religion. I grew up in Christian schools and did not really attend a public school until 10th grade...which also resulted in me learning creationism for most of my life, and having no foundation of real science. I was always scared into believing in God. When we had chapel in school, I can't begin to count the amount of times that they spent the entire hour describing how absolutely horrible hell is...and how God is the only person that can save you from that. The schools were so extreme, that we would spend an entire Saturday cleaning the school if we were caught even discussing secular music. Ever since starting college I have spent the last few years really confused, and have caught myself questioning God and the things I learned. I really have no idea what to believe anymore because for some reason, I can't shake the overwhelming sense of guilt I feel when I think about how I no longer have a relationship with God like I did growing up...or when I start questioning the Bible. This has been a long time coming, I guess I just have to sort it out for myself. Your blog has really made me think much harder about it.

Claire Humpage said...

Kd you didn't read it right....i said if He repents and TRUELY believes then he will be forgiven.
This wouldn't include somebody just saying it for the sake of it which is how you made that sound.


Also i dont have faith because i need it to get by, I dont have faith because I NEED to believe in life after death....im not a fluffy lovey girl who needs to think of pink clouds and bunnys instead of nothing after death. I believe because to me it is logic, i look at my daughter and i see a miracle, i look at the world and i see wonder.....i have faith because it makes sense to me. I dont hide behind it and im not foolish.

Nicole said...

what's the point in having an endless debate about something you'll never find an answer to? i suppose it is interesting to hear all the different opinions... but for me... as far as god and afterlife go, it's much less of a headache to just say "i'll find out when i'm dead." problem solved. :)

xoTLExo said...

Claire, I completely agree with you. There's too much beauty in the world to not believe in God. I'm sure you see that when you look at your daughter. I know I will if I ever have kids. Not to get all...sentimental and stuff, but it's the truth. I just can't look at the world without seeing God's part in it.

kd said...

There is so much beauty in the world. I have no doubt about that. But I have trouble looking at all the world has to offer and seeing anything other than the beauty of science, of nature, of people's hearts.

I'm certainly not saying that this simple beauty needs to be enough for you. If you feel compelled to believe in a god, that's okay. You're welcome to live in whatever way you think is going to get you where you need to be. That's exactly what I'm doing. And in the life that I need to be living, no god factors in to that.

lisa said...

in response to the top of your post - even those of us who live the most decent lives do not live perfect lives... Christian belief is that God is holy & perfect and we are sinful (since the Garden of Eden), so the only way anybody can be with God in relationship or in heaven is by having his or her sins atoned for... in Judaism it's through sacrifices of animals, but Christians believe that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for everyone's sins. those who choose to accept Him receive the relationship with God through faith and blamelessness in His eyes as a result.

so that's why ministers have told you that the murderer who repents and turns to God would go to heaven to be with Him, while someone who lives a decent life but rejects God would not. i hope that explains Christianity's view a bit... i'm thinking you have already heard all that though!

noellehere said...

lastly, unfortunately those "killers" who are saved before they die; well it's almost like telling a wet dream. Ya it's possible, it happens, but very unlikey. But the chance of a murderer turnin into your bible buddy overnight is about 100% less likely then that wet dream. Just like those statistics above, the statistics in which this happens is slim to none. it just doesn't really happen. So the comparrison is weak. Call a God you can't see weak? What is the defintion of a god? The presence of mountains, the colors of a flower, the smile you got from your dad, the way you feel when you get hurt, the knowledge of the difference between green and red. The ability to read this blog and have two fucking holy opposite opinions?? What does god have to look like??

degeromiroclaro said...

Tara-

I really hope that you are able to find what you need and are able to get through the confusion. Being confused and feeling alone/afraid, or like you just don't know what the anchor in your life is is not a fun place to be (I'm definitely in the middle of finding my understanding of life).
I want to say, don't worry about what anyone else says you must do, just be aware of and caring toward others and be/do what you think is right.

Gabe

Noelle said...

A more reasonable, and possibly easier to understand example would be an abusive father. Say you were raised with a dad who beat the shit out of you, drank non stop and yelled at you and your brothers and mom. For say, 25 years. Your mother was your only shining light showing you the only thing she could, love. Years pass, and things change. Your dad, stops drinking, takes control of his life, and asks for your forgiveness. Do you shun him off, tell him tough luck, and find a new father figure? Well, you could. And a lot of people do. But, you can also chose to forgive, and let your dad have a second chance of showing his love differently this time. Just because someone messes up, and badly, does that make them a bad person forever? The things they were doing in the past may have been bad, resulting in bad decisions, not people.

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